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Steel Roses Podcast
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All women are experiencing similar pressures and hurdles, and yet, no one is talking out in the open. If these topics continue to only exist as whispered conversations then we further permeate a culture of judgement and shame.
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Steel Roses Podcast
Reshma Kearney on Finding Light After Losing a Partner to Suicide
Reshma Kearney shares her heartbreaking journey of losing her husband to suicide in 2022 and how she navigated the difficult path of grief while raising three young children alone.
• Moving from Georgia to Washington State for a fresh start after Army life
• Making the difficult choice to tell her children the truth about their father's suicide
• Balancing her own grief while helping her children through theirs
• Using mindfulness practices to help each child process grief in their own way
• Finding her way back to herself while acknowledging she's fundamentally changed
• Creating a community through sharing her story on social media
• The importance of giving yourself grace during the grieving process
• Recognizing that despite best efforts, we can't always prevent suicide
• How sharing her experience helps give meaning to her suffering
• The stigma men face in seeking help for mental health issues
If you're interested in connecting with Reshma and learning more about grief support and mindfulness practices, you can find her on social media sharing her journey and building a supportive community for those experiencing similar loss.
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Hello everybody, this is Steel Rose's podcast. This podcast was created for women, by women, to elevate women's voices. I'm very pleased to introduce you today to our guest, reshma Carney. She is a mother of three who lost her husband to suicide in 2022. She found herself not only a grieving wife, but also a solo parent to three grieving children. She's here today to share her story and her family's experience to help others on their own grief journeys. Reshma, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 2:Thank you, it's an honor to be here.
Speaker 1:So thank you for being on. As I mentioned a few minutes ago, I'm very happy to be chatting with you today. I would love for you to share your story with the listeners and share your experience with them.
Speaker 2:So my grief journey began in 2022 when my husband, sean, died by suicide. We had just moved from Georgia to Washington State, where forever was supposed to begin after we separated from the Army and the summer that we moved to Washington, we're happy. The children were really happy. We're excited about all the things that we had been dreaming about doing.
Speaker 2:Once Sean got out of the army and in September, I started to see a shift in his behavior and his management of his emotions, and he had always dealt with depression and anxiety over the years.
Speaker 2:So I assumed that this was just part of a cycle and at the end of September he took his own life and I found him and I, with the help of others, family and friends, decided to tell the children the truth that day and it was a shock to all of us. And when people asked about whether or not I was surprised, I would respond by saying that I was surprised that he went to that point, got to that point and made that decision, but I wasn't surprised that he didn't want to be in the world anymore, and because of my experience with him and watching him struggle with mental health challenges, and also because of my experience, kind of picking up the pieces of our life. After this happened and now having to take care of my own mental health and the mental health of our children, I've gone to social media to share my story and in doing that, I've also started to create a community in which we all support each other on our grief journeys.
Speaker 1:My condolences, first and foremost because what going through something like that I honestly can't imagine it. I've had other people talk to me about this and I've just experienced it from afar and everyone always has said like, regardless of the moment, everyone's always blindsided. People are just shocked when it happens. A former guest that came on. She was sharing how menopausal women are actually on the higher range of suicide rates. Women have the higher range in that in the age range of menopause is the highest suicide rate for women. There's like a correlation there because of the mental shift and she was explaining to me that the push for her to get help because she was spiraling mentally was somebody had. You know.
Speaker 1:It came up randomly and somebody shared with her that their you know relative took her own life and nobody knew what had happened. No one had any idea, because on the outside, when you're depressed and you're going through something like that, the likelihood that you're actually showing what is really happening is incredibly low. You're not going to be walking around like that. People are going to assume you're okay and this woman put on this facade, probably for the sake of everybody else, and then she just she couldn't take it anymore and they didn't know what had happened until they found her journals, and that's when they knew. So it's the loss I can't imagine. And then I want to commend you for being honest with your kids. Well, I'm a little surprised because I think that most people wouldn't be Right, like I mean, I'm going to assume that most people would be like you know what? I don't want to say anything, let's just make up something else, like you know what?
Speaker 2:I don't want to say anything. Let's just make up something else. Yeah, of course I mean. In that moment I didn't know what to do and I was on the phone with family asking them what I should do.
Speaker 2:And ultimately, what helped me make my decision was the advice of a volunteer chaplain who came to the home from the police department and he sat with me all morning and day until the kids came home and we talked and he had seen things like this before and he had 30 years of experience. So I trusted him and I asked him what do I tell the kids? I have no idea what to tell them. What do I even do? Do I pull them out of school? And he said, well, what's their normal routine? And I said, well, today's picture day, and they're in school until 2.30 and then they walk home. And he said well, then you're going to let them do that. They're going to do exactly what they would have done normally and when they come home, you are going to introduce them to me and you're going to tell them that we need to talk and I'm going to tell them that their dad died.
Speaker 2:And in that moment I thought, well, why would you tell my kids I'm their mom, I have to fix this. You know, as moms we want to take care of them, we want to shield them, we want to explain everything to them. I couldn't believe that he would suggest that, but then he said if you tell them, you will always be the person who gave them the worst news of their lives. If I tell them, I'll be that guy that came to the house that one day and they never saw again. And so I agreed, I thought that was fine, it made sense. And then I asked him well, what are you going to say? And he said I'm going to tell them that their dad passed away today. And I said okay, but they're going to. They will want to know right.
Speaker 2:How. And he said I'm going to tell them that he took his own life, that he shot himself. And I, just I, I I just started thinking about years ahead, like what is this going to do to my kids? How much damage is this going to cause in this moment? Saying these things to them right now, when they're seven, eight and 10? Wow, and I just something told me to trust in him and I have no regrets now. I've seen in the last two and a half years so many moments in which I would have had to explain if we hadn't told them the truth, and I would not be sharing my story and helping other people right now if I had not been honest with them.
Speaker 1:So I'm glad that I was, but it was one of the hardest things I've ever had to do. You know, there's something also, I think, to be said for what you just said there that there would have been moments where you would have had to explain and it would have been like reopening it, the do you know? I'm saying like it would have been like if you had held that information back and waited and said like, oh, I have to wait until they're older. Like you know that I feel like that would have eaten away at you. Like having to to harbor that kind of a secret and then to eventually have to tell them would drive you probably crazy, because you knew you would know. And then you know, really, like kind of picking it apart, like them knowing all this time that you kept it from them, that I mean it's like a whole snowball of like everything that would have been not right and withholding that information.
Speaker 1:I'm very, very much an advocate of not talking to my kids like they're. They're kids like I, they Like I, they're kids Like I don't. You know, there's certain things obviously I'm not going to talk with them about, but I'm very upfront with them, and my husband too. We're very upfront with them. So, so we have very like our. My twins are seven and my son is eight and they're very articulate, like they will sit and have a whole big person conversation with you, because that's how we talk with them. And you know, on a lesser degree, I'll use this as an example.
Speaker 1:They're what my son is in third and the girls are in second, and my son wanted to stay home from school. He was like kept bothering about it and instead of just saying like no, you have to go, like this with the rules and or you know, whatever it is like, whatever parents normally say, I said to him I was like, listen, like you have to go, because if you don't go to school, you're going to fall behind in your work, and if you fall behind in your work, then you're going to end up left behind and then you're going to be in the same class as your sisters. And that's how, that's how I, that's how I said it, cause I'm like I don't, you're not going to the rest of it, you're not going to get, but if I tell you that you're going to be stuck with them, that's going to be something that you're like all right, I don't want to do that. So I that's a whole other, different way, but like the fact that you, you did take this moment to be able to address it.
Speaker 2:I think so, and I think it also opens up so many opportunities now to talk to them about mental health and depression, anxiety and suicide. And I'm glad that we're able to talk openly with each other, because what they've been through the trauma and loss that we've been through as a family it has most certainly affected our mental health and we are going to face challenges for the rest of our lives. And so I'm glad that we've been open with each other because I feel that if they are really struggling, they will come to me and they know they have the right words and they know what their emotions feel like and they know how to label them and they have tools to talk about it, share and to give themselves what they need to manage the big emotions. How?
Speaker 1:did you navigate grieving while also trying to help your kids grieve? It's a juggling act? Yeah, and I'm asking because I know how hard I have it with certain things and I'm like, how are you doing?
Speaker 2:How did you?
Speaker 1:do this hard.
Speaker 2:I have it with certain things that I'm like how are you doing? How did you do this? Yeah, In the very beginning, when Sean passed away. I always say I think moms just go into fight or flight mode when there's crisis or tragedy. And so that's what I did. I went into fight or flight mode. I did get up and out of bed every morning, but I did it just for the kids and I pushed through the day just for the kids, got them connected with resources. Therapists made sure they were back in school, they had normal social lives.
Speaker 2:I honestly, in those early months I didn't care if I'd never be happy again. Those early months I didn't care if I'd never be happy again. I remember thinking that I will probably never be happy again, I'll never find joy again, and that's fine. My job now is to take care of the kids. But you do that for a few months and you get burnt out, You're resentful and this whole time I'm trying to build this positive, safe space for my children but I'm putting negative energy into it.
Speaker 2:So I had to pause and the kids and I had a really solid mindfulness practice in place before Sean passed away.
Speaker 2:We actually started practicing mindfulness in the house during the height of the pandemic, when we were quarantining and homeschooling, and it was very much a part of my daily life and I had let go of it a little bit after he passed away. And so when I realized that I wasn't showing up as my best self for the kids, I paused and I went back to some of those practices. So I did things like when I walked them to school, instead of going back home to get to the paperwork and phone calls, I would call my dad and I would make sure I walked at least 20 minutes and then I made sure I was going to the gym. I got back to the gym, I gave myself breaks during the day, I reached out for help. I was saying no to help initially and then I asked for help. I was saying no to help initially and then I I asked for help, and all of those things made such a big difference in how I was showing up for them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I am the only reflection that I can make. As you were talking, the only thing I could think through that would be a through line for me was when, you know, my mother was mourning the loss of her marriage, basically and not at all the same thing. So I don't want it to come. You know, my mother was mourning the loss of her marriage, basically and not at all the same thing. So I don't want it to come, you know.
Speaker 2:But and I remember.
Speaker 1:I remember she very much was. She's not a I'm going to address this or face it kind of person. She's more of a I'm going to brush it under the rug and just keep moving forward because I don't know how to deal with this and for a really long time that was like just the. That was the theme. It was like just brush it to the side and keep going and unfortunately that's taken its toll on her, you know.
Speaker 1:To this, day she's in her her seventies now and I can sense the difference in her soul that, like you know the person that she was when I was growing up. It's not the same person because she's kept so much in that, you know, she wasn't able to really bounce back after what she went through. That was the other thing I actually wanted to compliment you on was your energy when you came on, like when we were just chatting briefly in the beginning. Your energy is so lovely and it actually, like it made me feel I said to you, as soon as you hopped on, I was like I just had like a kind of call on the for some, for something else, for the podcast, and it brought my vibration down and, despite what you've been through, your energy is very light and it feels very good to talk with you. So, thank you, you've definitely.
Speaker 1:The mindfulness practice has definitely made a big impact. And I want to say also and sometimes when I have these calls where I do recordings with people, it's interesting because when we're chatting, the guests will ultimately say something that I'm like oh, I think I needed to hear that today. And the other thing that I think is really wonderful that you did was you leaned into physical fitness a bit, is what it sounds like. Yeah, I've, I've read, I've read a lot on how you know meditation doesn't have to just be like, oh, sitting still and meditating, that you can be meditating, you know when you're exercising, because that is an important practice.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean you can do walking meditations where you're just walking and noticing colors or you're checking in with your five senses. I think that's what scares people about meditation, because they think they have to sit on the floor cross-legged for 30 minutes or an hour. And it's not like that at all. I mean, even before this recording, sat down, took a few deep breaths and just kind of visualize myself sitting in across from you and talking, and that was like three minutes, you know, and it does. Just breathing for one minute brings your heart rate down, lowers stress. So, yeah, physical fitness is, it is part of mindfulness practice.
Speaker 1:And the other thing I wanted to comment on it. I'm very, it's very interesting to me that you had already built up a mindfulness practice prior to this happening, and so do you think it was easier for your kids not the grieving at all, because that is not easy at all, but like for them to start to pick up on, like okay, I think that this is going to help Because they were young, you know. Yeah, that in itself, like understanding what happened, accepting what happened and then also trying to do the mindfulness, I mean for kids, did you see that there was difficulty there because you already had practiced, they were okay with it.
Speaker 2:I think for kids it's well. I mean, look, even for me, when Sean passed away, I totally forgot about my mindfulness practices. You know, I just I let that go. And so I think, same for the kids. They didn't go to their practices. They weren't thinking like that because the pain was so deep and the shock was so fresh. But I knew what worked for them and I know each of my kids, and so I was able to gently remind them of the practices that worked for them before. And what's interesting is I learned that even with three siblings you can't use the same practice. So, for example, my son, when he I think he kept most of his emotions to himself, they came out in anger and outbursts, and I knew that. And at night he would have a hard time sleeping. So sometimes I would lie down with him and I would just guide his breathing and we'd breathe in for four, hold, breathe out, and that helped him.
Speaker 2:And my middle one, she didn't just have a hard time falling asleep, she had a hard time even just unwinding at the end of the day. For her she's quiet and doesn't share a lot, and so I brought out a journal for her. And also somebody had sent us a kid's grief journal and I encouraged her to use those and slowly she started doing that and then at night when she was feeling unsettled, she would pull her journal out and write. And the nice thing about that was, with her permission, I would look through her journal from time to time and I would kind of get a better sense of where she was mentally and emotionally.
Speaker 2:And my youngest one, she is a free spirit and she's the kid who has to be outside barefoot picking up sticks and rocks. So anytime I saw her light dim a little bit, I knew I needed to get out. And so we were out all all the time during the week for soccer and other activities, and then on the weekends I would make sure that the four of us did something outdoors, even just a walk outside or bike ride or hike, and that kind of helped her. You know ground.
Speaker 1:I started teaching my kids mindfulness practices last year, last summer, and it was very interesting, because I meditate every morning.
Speaker 1:Oh, lately it hasn't been every morning because I explained like I've been very busy with the new work that I'm doing, but I try very hard to meditate and journal every single day and I can feel the vast difference when I don't do that. So it's. And so I started teaching the kids about it now, because in my head I'm like well, I didn't learn about this until I was like 37. Oh, they're little and you know, I'd have them all sit out and meditate with me, or I'll tell them like, even if they don't want to meditate, I'm like well, this is quiet time, you have to be silent, or what have you? I'm waiting for them to get old enough for the journaling, because I'm very excited for them to be able to lean into that as a healing and cathartic thing. So now you've gone through this experience, your family has gone through this experience, what made you decide that you were okay to share your story with others and what made you decide that you wanted to help other people by sharing your story?
Speaker 2:When I lost Sean, I was on Instagram building a kids mindfulness and movement business, and the plan was, when we separate from the army and move to Washington state and got settled, I was going to start my own business, and so I was on Instagram, and when he passed away, I got off in Instagram completely, and a year and a half later so this was last May, which was mental health awareness month I knew that I wanted to get back onto social media.
Speaker 2:I knew I wanted to share my story, but I didn't know when, and it was during Mental Health Awareness Month that I just felt this calling to get onto social media, and so it started with just a post sharing my story, saying, hey, I know I've dropped off, this is what's happened in our world and I'm going to share my story here.
Speaker 2:And after a couple months, I realized that a lot of people were resonating with what we've been through, things that I've said, things I've said about Sean's mental health or my own, and it made me realize that, even though a lot of people don't talk about it or share openly, more people have gone through things that I've gone through than I ever knew. And so I thought this is good, I'm sharing my story and I think it's speaking to people, and then I started thinking back about mindfulness and how that has really helped us heal and move forward, and so I thought I want to do that again. I want to share that with people, and I want to combine that with grief support, because I truly believe that that's what got me to where I am today.
Speaker 1:It's. You know, it's very interesting to be able to interview yourself and then all the other guests that have come on, because majority of if not all honestly, it might actually be all. I don't even think it's majority. I think it's all. It might actually be all. I don't even think it's majority, I think it's all.
Speaker 1:Every woman that has come on this podcast and shared their story, there was some trauma point and after the trauma point came this thing that really pushed them in a whole other direction, and each trauma point was different, but at the end, each one of these women had decided to step forward and say you know what I'm going to take, what I went through. I'm actually going to help other people and I'm not sure if it's because of the mindset that you're currently in or because of the vibrational energy that you're exuding at this point, or because of the vibrational energy that you're exuding at this point, but every single one of you have had this moment and I can sense it in you all that you very much are like I need to share this and it's almost like a driving force. It sounds like a driving force inside you. That's like I see this. People are resonating here Like let me, let me go a step further.
Speaker 2:Let me try to help these people, and it's it's incredible, honestly, to to be able to see that level of just openness and willingness to share your story in order to help other people yeah, it's almost like you go through so much pain and shock and hell that when you start healing, you feel like you have to share that with everybody, because if you don't, all of that is just for nothing interesting you know, it's interesting to hear you say it in that sense too, because it's almost almost like a greater purpose that was put into your path.
Speaker 1:And you know the person I talked to before you asked me. She asked me she was like, well, what's the kind of a not so nice way? She kind of just said, well, what's your goal here? Like what's the point of you doing all this? Meaning the podcast? Like what am I even bothering for? And I just said I was like, well, I'm like it took me a minute and I don't think I even said it to her the way that in my head now I'm thinking about it now that I'm talking with you.
Speaker 1:But the whole goal here was always to connect women and to let women share their stories. Because, you know, even myself personally, there has been trauma and there has been things not and not definitely not to the severity that you've experienced but there have been things that I got to a certain point where I was like I know that I have a talent and I know I want to use my voice and I don't, and I know I want to bring women together. How am I doing that? And then thus came the podcast, and it came after like a very like downward spiral and then an upward spiral, and so it's interesting to hear you say that, because it it feels like this was a purpose. You know, like it feels to me as you're talking about what you've been through the fact that you were doing mindfulness practices beforehand, the fact that you were doing mindfulness practices beforehand and then that was really what helped guide you and your kids to be able to navigate the situation is that?
Speaker 2:that's very I mean, it's almost I don't know how to even say the words, but it's very interesting to hear all that. Yeah, I always say that I feel like the universe prepared me for this. Yeah For having to navigate this life without my husband. And to to me, to comfort. Somebody regretted sharing my story or felt that I shouldn't have started this journey, what may, so, not even a year ago? How?
Speaker 1:have you. You know, I well, let me say this and then I'm gonna ask this question. I said to my husband the other night we're just at night, we will chat about just random stuff and I said to him you know, I'm like we've been together for 15 years and I was like I feel like the person I was when we met is so far gone from the person I am today, and I mean that in a good way, I mean that in a positive way. It feels like a whole other lifetime ago. And do you find yourself now today standing with what you've been through, thinking to yourself this is a whole different Reshma. Like this, you know, like this is a whole other, like you must process thoughts differently, like I mean, I can't imagine the rewiring in your brain, like it must've been astronomical.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's. I don't feel like the same person at all. In fact, when I see glimpses of my old self, like if I'm being silly or I'm out with girlfriends and I'm dancing at the table in a restaurant, you know I'll pause like, oh my gosh, there she is, like I need to hold on to her, but she slips away. You know it does change you. It changes your outlook on life. It changes your outlook on the world. It changes your values, your beliefs. It changes your personality, how you show up in the world.
Speaker 1:I can see it's changed my kids, yeah yeah, I don't think of it in a negative way, but I do see how, yes, you could see like the glimpses of the sillier, like carefree, like, oh, the person who didn't really have to carry this burden, and then you have yourself. Now. It feels, though, that, because you do get to see glimpses, she's still there, she's still just waiting, she's still healing, she's still trying to do her thing, and that she is making her way back, and it might not necessarily be ever again the person that you were, but she will be somebody almost like bright and new, because as I said when you came on the line, like I almost had a sense of like, oh okay, and it's so strange to say that.
Speaker 1:But as soon as you came on, I was like, oh good, all right, Okay, here we go. Like this is a good call, like this is a good vibe, that we hadn't even started talking yet. That makes me happy to hear. So, for for someone going through this loss, you know what is something that I mean. You know the initial shock. I can't even imagine how long the initial shock takes. It must be varying person to person. What would the advice be, or what's the guidance, for somebody who is experiencing a loss like this?
Speaker 2:I think what I would tell somebody who has gone through a loss like this is to give yourself grace, because when you go through a loss like this, the range of emotions that you feel are so intense and the grief is so intense and complicated just as much as the loss itself that if you don't give yourself grace, you will constantly be fighting a battle that you'll never win. And I think it's when I learned that and accepted that for myself that you know, I was never going to find all the answers that I was looking for, that this isn't my fault, that, despite all the media saying that, you know, look for the signs, the signs like you don't always see the signs. Yeah, and I now know that there was nothing I could have done to prevent this, and maybe if I had somehow stopped it from happening that day, it probably would have happened another time. And now that I've come to that peace in my mind, I'm able to move forward.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's probably most people's immediate responses I should have seen it, I should have known, I should have done something. And you did say a hard reality just now. Even if you had stopped it that day and this is for folks listening to even if you had gotten in the gotten you know in the way, that day it eventually would happen. Because when someone is on that path, it's almost like that they are on this path like it, it's almost inevitable. Because if that's the goal, I know that a lot of people that I've talked to have talked about things of that nature saying like I, if I could have done something. But the reality is you really don't know, and unfortunately you know there is no way to know what somebody is going through inside their head. It's, it's just, it's just not possible, possible, and you can't be held responsible for what they're going through.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you can know I knew that Sean struggled with depression and anxiety. I knew that for years and every year there'd be a downward cycle and I would lift him back up.
Speaker 2:And as I lifted him back up, I would remind him that he needed to talk to somebody or he needed to go to his doctor and see if he could talk about meds. I got him to go to yoga with me. I encouraged him to journal. We practiced gratitude at dinner. He often didn't join in on that. I tried to go for walks. I tried to reduce, or encourage him to reduce, his drinking. I changed our diet sometimes. I tried to do all these little things around him to help him, but it was really his responsibility to go and get help responsibility to go and get help.
Speaker 2:I'm still trying to figure out what it is that women, how do I put this? I'm trying to figure out why it is that men don't talk to their wives about their mental health, because in the last several months I've had a couple of men talk to me about their mental health and they tell me they won't talk to their wives because their wives don't understand. And that's interesting to me because I then think about what messages I might have been sending to Sean. Was he trying to talk to me and I sent him similar messages that I didn't understand? I don't know, but I do know.
Speaker 2:I asked him several times in the months leading up to his death. I did ask him how are you doing? You know I'm noticing these changes, what is it? And his responses would always be work, the new job. You know, we had just moved across the country. So I thought, okay, these are all normal things to be stressed about and once he gets a handle on these things, he'll be fine, will be fine. And I even asked him once if he ever thought about harming himself or ending his life and he said that he and he's thought about it, but that he wouldn't do it because he then thinks about his wife and his children. So I've thought about that conversation many times since he passed away and I asked myself if I did the right thing and believing him, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah believing him. You know, yeah, you just never know. You don't know. He never gave up. He worked very hard. He was an orthopedic surgeon, a lieutenant colonel in the army had been through so much in his life and pushed, pushed, pushed and I never thought he would give up in this ultimate way of giving up.
Speaker 1:You know, I think you bring up something very important there regarding husbands talking to their wives, and I actually think that that is a pretty serious problem across marriages and I'll even say in my own, because there was my husband had sent me there is there are many instances where it's like we're speaking different languages. There are many instances where it's like we're speaking different languages, like entirely. And you know, for example, I had shared with you that I had to travel this week. So I was intensely stressed out leading up to this week because it was only a one day turnaround, but it was going to be like a 20 hour day, like it was going to be really intense and really grueling. And I was really stressed out about it because I'm like, well, I try to prepare my household as much as I can for my absence and do everything that I would normally do in a day, the day before. So you know, like the mom thing and I do this out of, I guess, guilt in a way for leaving and you know, wanting to say like, oh, don't worry, everything, I still took care of everything even though I'm not here. And then there's also the residual stress of like I'm still stressed out traveling because I'm not there. And then I have everyone kind of giving me, like you know, the sad eyes. All the kids cried at some point. I'm like I'm only going to be gone, it's only gonna be like 12 hours that you're going to be without me, like I promised. But you know, and leading up to that, it was interesting because the day before I was leaving I was running around running errands, like trying to get things done. And, um, we, my husband and I, kept arguing with each other because he's like, well, I'm trying to be helpful, I'm like, well, you're not, it's the way you're saying it. And it was crazy because he was actually trying to be helpful, but I was so stressed that I couldn't really hear the help. I couldn't hear it Like I just couldn't see it.
Speaker 1:And there had been a prior instance where he had sent me an image and he had found it online, and it was an image of a man. He was laying flat on top of a cliff and he had his arm over the side and he was holding onto his wife's hand. So the wife was dangling over the cliff. It was like a car, it was like a caricature. So the wife is dangling over the cliff, the husband was laying up top and in between the husband and wife there was a little hole where a rattlesnake was in there, and so, from the top, the husband is holding the wife and he can't see the rattlesnake. And he's holding on to her and he has a boulder on his back, so the wife can't see the boulder on his back. The husband can't see that the rattlesnake is biting the wife's arm, but they're holding on to each other wife's arm, but they're holding on to each other.
Speaker 1:And it's such a powerful image to me because, yes, you're holding on, you're united to your husband, but there are things that you're going to go through that he is never going to see or understand, and vice versa. And as you were talking, that image popped into my head because I'm like you were doing everything that you thought like, okay, well, this will be helpful, this will be helpful, but the reality is you would have never known what he was really going through. There is no way for you to know that. And there, and anyone listening to this, this podcast, if you're, if you have someone you're concerned about, you know, serious intervention is very much needed, and I know I can't speak to it, so I want to leave that to you, reshma, to give guidance there. But it's not something to just kind of be casual about either. It is something that, if there's a serious issue, there has to be some sort of major intervention, I would imagine, because you really don't know how far gone that person is you really don't know how far gone that person is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and I know that you can call the suicide hotline or you can take someone into the emergency room, but sometimes it's hard to know what to do when you know somebody's struggling and they won't take that step with you. So, for example, with my husband, I couldn't lift him and take him anywhere to get him help and you know, of course I didn't know he was suicidal but to get him help for his depression, anxiety, really, all I could do was encourage him.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's yeah there, this is not something that and I think you said it earlier you had to really come to grips with this. This onus was not on you and it really is up to the person to make the determination if they're going to move forward or how they're going to handle it. It really is up to the individual person.
Speaker 2:Right and I will say in terms of Sean and other men out there who are struggling, I say that it was man. Especially for him, being an orthopedic surgeon in the army, it was very difficult for him to speak up about his mental health and to ask for help, to ask for rest or breaks. I remember he would avoid at all costs asking a colleague to cover for him for a break or for travel and I know that he felt like if he shared what he was dealing with he would be looked upon as weak or not doing his job. So there are a lot of barriers that we still have to break down. For men, yeah, and hopefully, hopefully, the more people share and I've seen a lot of men's health groups, mental health groups, advocating hopefully men will feel safer and sharing and asking for help.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and honestly I think that that that right there issue is a huge issue in itself and I know I typically will focus more so on you know what women are going through and what we have to deal with. But the truth of it is there's a lot of stigma for men raising their hand and saying I need some help here. And you know, I know we feel trapped sometimes and we don't feel like we can ask for help, and that's a whole other bowl of wax. But there is absolutely a stigma there for men to say I'm having a problem, I need some help, and even to accept help and to really like lean on someone else to help you get through something difficult. It takes a tremendous amount and I know my husband. He has had some. He has had his own mental health issues and you know even the way how far he has come.
Speaker 1:I tell him all the time how huge it is that he's come as far as he has, because normally you know from what he's had to deal with, you need like massive intervention you have to go away to, you know like a rehab or what have you, and you know he's been able to really manage it on his own and I'm, you know, incredibly impressed. So I tell him all the time I'm like you know, what you've done is you've turned your life around, so much so that it's like you know, many other people would have spiraled. And he had successfully turned and made it, made it through to the other side, but he did it by himself Because, again, like every time I brought up, well, maybe you should tap into a different resource, maybe you should. You know, I can call someone, we have insurance. Like we figure this out. It was always like no, no, no, I'm not going to do that, I don't need to talk to anyone, it doesn't work. Every time I've done it it doesn't make any sense. You know, they gave me the wrong medication, this, that the next thing, it alone. Thankfully he's okay.
Speaker 1:But there's quite a bit of stigma for men reaching out and asking for help and you're right, professionally too, depending on what you do for a living your husband was a surgeon that's a pretty big deal. And for someone of that caliber to say I need help, I'm having issues, I mean I can't even imagine he must've been like, say I need help, I'm having issues, I mean I can't even imagine he must've been like there's no way that I can really do that. Yeah, reshma, for the wives, for a woman who has gone through a loss and is just trying to navigate her grief. What do you think you would say to somebody who's newly entering this world and is trying to see the light at the other side?
Speaker 2:I would say hold on to hope, because healing is possible. But it's not easy, it doesn't just happen. We have to put in the work and in order to do that, we have to honor our grief, we have to sit with our feelings, we have to allow ourselves time to sit with our feelings and give ourselves grace.
Speaker 1:Like I said earlier, I have no idea why that keeps happening. Did you finish?
Speaker 2:your thought, I did yeah.
Speaker 1:You did, how did you end it? And I asked because I can edit. I'm going to edit. I have to edit them both together anyway, but I can take what you said and cut it there and then layer in like a closing okay, I said that basically, I ended with and give themselves, give ourselves grace, like I mentioned earlier okay, I heard that part.
Speaker 1:I thought that was very good. Yeah, this time it wasn't even just the internet, like my whole entire, like my whole computer, like froze, and I had to restart it. Okay, but we're okay. I got like I have the footage from, I have the audio from earlier. I grabbed all the audio from now. I'm just looking at all of it because yours, I know.
Speaker 2:And when I left this, when I left the studio, waited until it said it refinished yeah, no, that's what.
Speaker 1:I was looking at. I'm like all right, I have the audio. I'm like this is like I can't believe that happened two times to you. I'm so sorry. I apologize, that's okay. What would you like me to point people towards for you Like? Because normally I'll link stuff in the description, so do you want me to point them to your Instagram? Wait, I don't have to record any of this. Hold on one second Let.
