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Steel Roses Podcast
Steel Roses is a podcast created for women by women. Social pressures for women are constant. Professionals, stay at home moms, working moms, we are here to tell you that you are not alone! This podcasts primary focus is providing real honest content shedding light on the daily struggles of women while also elevating women's voices.
All women are experiencing similar pressures and hurdles, and yet, no one is talking out in the open. If these topics continue to only exist as whispered conversations then we further permeate a culture of judgement and shame.
Join Jenny weekly as she discusses topics that effect women in a relatable, honest way.
Steel Roses Podcast
Melissa Bennett-Heinz and The Courage to Choose Yourself
Melissa Bennett-Heinz shares how Gestalt psychotherapy transformed her life after traditional therapy left her stuck, guiding us through a powerful conversation about women's struggle to prioritize themselves.
• Discussing the courage it takes for women to reschedule commitments and make space for themselves
• Exploring how work burnout affects mental health and family dynamics
• Understanding Gestalt therapy as an embodied, relational approach focusing on present moment awareness
• Recognizing anxiety in the body as a guide rather than letting it control decisions
• Learning that small, consistent changes are more effective than attempting dramatic overhauls
• Breaking free from societal conditioning that rewards women for self-sacrifice
• Taking responsibility for ourselves while recognizing we're not meant to do everything alone
• Understanding that a healthy family requires parents to nurture their relationship first
Remember that your body will never lie to you - reconnecting with your physical sensations provides the guidance you need to make choices that truly support your wellbeing.
Looking for more?
https://www.melissabennettheinz.com/
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Hello everybody, this is Steel Roses podcast. This podcast was created for women, by women, to elevate women's voices. I am very excited to introduce all of you today to our guest. We have with us Melissa Bennett Hines Now. Melissa was originally trained as a classical oboist at the Manhattan School of Music. Her path shifted after a series of profound personal losses. She discovered traditional therapy, but she was beginning to feel stuck over time, which led her to discover Gestalt psychotherapy, which is a transformative approach that helped her reconnect with herself and others. She actually later earned her MSW from Columbia University and completed clinical training at Gestalt Associates for Psychotherapy. Today, she helps clients heal through a presence-centered, relational and experiential approach that fosters deep self-awareness and connection. Melissa, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2:Good to be here, so glad to be finally able to sit down with you.
Speaker 1:I know, I know my poor schedule. I feel so bad and honestly, I actually have to give a big shout out to like all of the guests, including yourself, because everyone has been very gracious with me having to shift things about, so I'm very grateful that you were able to record with me today. Yeah, and I really love that.
Speaker 2:you asked for what you needed and you were. You allowed yourself to take up space and say you know what? This doesn't work for me now and I want to reschedule, like I think that that takes a lot of courage to be able to do that for many people, but for women, you know this thing came up.
Speaker 1:I you know what. Let me elaborate on that for the audience. So what ended up happening was Melissa and I were scheduled and I actually had a few meetings scheduled for the podcast that all were on Mother's Day. And you know, at the time of everything being scheduled, I I didn't, I don't really, I didn't really think of it, I didn't think of it the holiday, and so what I had to do is I had to message everybody and Melissa, I actually do want to share with you.
Speaker 1:It was a struggle for me to do that. It was very hard for me to say I actually can't meet on Mother's Day. It was and, and you know, you think like no, like Jen, like that's your day, you want to be with your family, like they're obviously doing something for you. It was hard to raise my hand and say I need to give myself some grace here. I need space because I want to be able to celebrate with my family. And this is something that I would have never done a couple years ago. I would have, I would have told my family I have to do these recordings and you know, we'll just, we'll just deal with it and I would have never made space. So, honestly, I didn't even think of it until you said, oh, good for you for doing that until so. It's taken me some time to be able to do that.
Speaker 2:You have expanded in the world, yeah, Um so.
Speaker 2:Melissa, though, telling everybody I have to, I'm going to interrupt you for a minute. Yeah, go in this organic conversation we're going to have. I'm going to interrupt you right, cause you already let me know that I'm going to need to do that on your podcast. That's true, on your podcast. But what is also very entertaining to share about this story is we have had to reschedule three times, and it's not just Jenny's schedule, it was Melissa. Forgot, literally just blocked it out of my mind that we had an appointment, and I just did a flat no-show and, um, yeah, that's that brings up shame and embarrassment and fear. You know, oh my gosh, but here we are, like you know which is actually a little bit funny Cause.
Speaker 1:I forgot about that.
Speaker 2:Did you see? You know, look at that Like it was. It really, of course, stands out to me, cause I'm the one who made that error, but you completely forgot.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That makes me think of, like I wonder how much other stuff we we don't remember about other people, but we think that what we do might have a tremendous impact on somebody when, oh, you shouldn't even remember it. Great.
Speaker 1:That's a really good point. That's a. That's an excellent point. How much, how much? How many things do we beat ourselves up about as women, when the other person it's fine, it's okay. Not that it doesn't matter, but it's okay, I'm okay with this. It's not a big deal, it's a little crazy, yeah.
Speaker 2:And even better is the Mother's Day reschedule. It worked perfectly because I needed some time off. Like I got an injury when I was working out and I wasn't feeling good, and I got another injury on the property working outside and I was like kind of like a two week stretch of like a lot of working, doing more. During this two week stretch working weekends I went to a workshop and it was just like, oh, I really just I need to take a break. I needed a couple of days just to lay low and recharge and not move too much and try to like heal my injuries, and it was perfect timing. So what you don't know is like that it actually helped me. Not only was it no big deal, but it actually was something I needed and you didn't even know the time.
Speaker 1:You know, I've had, I've had other experiences like that with this podcast, where guests have like on my side, I'm like, oh, you know, and I'm looking at my phone I'm like, oh, no, there's a recording tonight. And oh, but the kids are acting up, you know, and things are like snowballing. And then I'll get a like a little ping that's like, oh, the recording was canceled. And I'm always like Like relief. And then I'll get the email that's like I'm so sorry, I need to move it because of this, this and this. And I always reply and I'm like, you know, it seems to always work out, though, that like someone reschedules or cancels and I'm like, actually, that works out perfectly because I needed the extra breathing room. So it's. I think it's also, you know, admitting to ourselves like sometimes you do have to make that space to say like I can't do this right now. And I'll give another example, since we're going with the organic.
Speaker 1:I had to. You know, I mentioned it briefly when we were in our little pre recording. I had the foresight back in March that I was like I'm going to be really busy in April with my daytime job. So I knew I was like you know what I'm going to have to block April. Like I already know, I'm not going to be able to do this. What I didn't anticipate also, though, was once the project was done and it was great success, I'm really proud of it but once the project was done, I was severely burnt out, because I had gone through this very crazy and and anybody who works corporate knows like, when you have one of these projects on your plate, you're giving it your all, so I was, you know, doing 5. Am to 11 PM, like really just throwing everything I had at it, and so, at the end of it, you know, I was shot, like I couldn't even really think things through clearly, and it was making me like, kind of depressed.
Speaker 1:And, granted, like my cycle came in about the same time, so like that was you know a whole other like hormonal thing, but it was making me depressed because I'm like, wow, like I don't feel like podcasting, I don't feel like writing, I don't feel like doing, and it was like all this stuff that I normally love to do. All of a sudden, I was like I don't want to do any of this, I just want to lay here, like I just want to sleep, I just want to watch TV Like I don't want to even do anything. And it's taken me almost like a solid two weeks to shake that off and feel like I'm waking up again, like I just started meeting with all my podcast guests again this weekend. Prior to that, I was like I don't, I can't, I don't have the brain space. And now I'm excited again. And now I'm like okay, I'm back.
Speaker 1:So it's interesting, that little gap of two weeks where I was like in my head I knew that it wasn't. This is how I talked to myself, melissa. I'm like Jenny, I don't think this is real. I think you're probably just really tired and you probably just need this space right now. And so I kept giving myself space to really just like let go some of the stress that I had been feeling. And now that enough time has passed, I'm like okay, I'm ready, like I'm ready to jump back in the saddle.
Speaker 2:Was the you gave yourself space in the response to noticing the lack of motivation and lack of excitement you normally would feel and when you noticed that stuff, that's when you said wait a minute, okay, and you were able to say all right, I need to do something, which was block off April, is that right? Yeah, and you've had a couple of weeks almost where you haven't had a lot scheduled and you've had some more time to settle and maybe allow your system to reset after a long period of oh my gosh, it sounds like a brutal schedule 5am to 11pm.
Speaker 2:It was intense.
Speaker 1:It was intense.
Speaker 2:How many days in a row. Were you working like that? Or for like what did that? This might be too tangential to for the podcast right now, but I'm just curious like how long did that go on for?
Speaker 1:did that go on for? Um, it wasn't every day, but it was at least three or three or four times a week, so it was nearly every day um for about five weeks.
Speaker 2:That sounds very rough.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and and, and I will say it is, it's, um, it's, it's the nature of my profession. You know this happens and I've been in my career for about 16 years or so at this point, or 18. I can't, I'm losing track a little bit. I think it might be 18. In this profession for a long time. So I already knew, you know, and I and I know, I know what to expect.
Speaker 1:And the thing that I think saved me the most this time was one, like I already recognized, I knew it was coming, so I had already started clearing my schedule. I was like I know this is coming and I can't do anything about that. It's my job. So how can I and I like to refer to, like the glass ball, rubber ball, like method, like this is how I approach. And I'm like, all right, well, what absolutely can I not move, that I have to do? And then what can I put, push off to another time. And so every day was an exercise of like what do I have to do? Versus like what do I really? You know, what should I be doing? Or what do I want to do, kind of thing.
Speaker 1:And I'm very grateful for my family because they the last week was very hard for everybody because they had like, had enough, and they're like we want mom back, like this is too much. But for the most of it I just kept talking to them, and even my kids. I would tell them and I would sit them down in the morning. I'm like listen, mommy, this project that you understand and they knew, and you know my team was really gracious and great and everybody was very supportive of each other. But it just kind of had to happen. And so I would sit with my kids and tell them like I'm so sorry, you know, I know mommy's really busy and they're like Mom, you know, we don't, we don't like this. I'm like I understand, this is what's happening, this is when it's going to be over, and I would show them on the calendar like this is the day that it's all done, and I would just explain it to them.
Speaker 1:And having that dialogue with them I found was very important because I didn't want them to not understand what was going on and then I didn't want them to get their own perception of like what was happening. Like why is mom not available? Why is mom being like really mean today? You know, why is she snapping at us, like I'm very transparent with my family. So my husband obviously he's an adult, he gets it. But my kids? I would sit them and talk with them and say, like at night I'd pull all three of them together and be like, yeah, it was a tough day for mommy, how was your day? And then we would kind of just go through it and talk. And they weren't, they were, they're fine now and we're back to our normal schedule. And they know I'm like it's not my preference, but it just had to happen. And the conversation, though, and the communication was, like I think, crucial to getting through the whole thing.
Speaker 2:For everyone, right. You too Right thing for everyone, right. You too right.
Speaker 2:To be able to be present with them in the way you did through that, like so, with so much mindfulness, is really amazing, like so many layers of learning that you gave your kids, in that you know, like like I, just it's so beautiful how inviting them to be relational with you, right, like inviting them to look and see and hear and understand and be able to plan and count.
Speaker 2:And how do we navigate through this time, like, how do we do that as humans when it's really hard and we're managing so much in all of our lives and we have the pressure of parenting, the pressure of your visit, your job, your pressure of the things you want to do, the things that you give you joy, too, right, we're trying to cram all of this stuff and not just work, right. But that you showed them a way to navigate that where you don't do it by yourself, right, you don't do it by toughing up and pretending like everything is fine and not explaining, right. And that you also, in that inviting them in, really allowed for this like support for you to receive too, so they can be with you, in that you don't have to do it alone. All of this work is the mother and a professional.
Speaker 1:You know, know, that was and part of that was actually very much part of why I presented it to them and was like, and even before it got really crazy, I said things are going to get a little crazy and I just explained it to everybody. There was a very there's very much a part of me that wanted to do that, especially. I know my girl, all three of my kids are picking things up from me, obviously. But like my daughters, I want to make sure I'm trying very much to impress upon them that you don't have to carry everything by yourself, because that's very much how I've always been and I'm trying to break all those patterns now, like I just started at 37, you of years back breaking these behaviors and it's still taking time.
Speaker 1:Like I said, it was painful for me to be like I want to spend Mother's Day with my family. That took a lot for me to be able to admit that I couldn't do everything, and so now I'm very much thinking of everything I do and I say every example that I couldn't do everything. And so now I'm very much thinking of like, everything I do and I say every example that I'm putting out there. They're seeing it, so it's not just about lecturing your kids, in my opinion, and it's not just about like, oh, I'm telling you what to do and do as I say, but not what I do.
Speaker 1:Like, how can I sit there and say to my kids you don't have to do everything by yourself or make sure you ask for help when, when? I'm not modeling this behavior. So it was very important to me to be able to show them like mommy is having a tough day today. This project is really kicking my butt. It's okay for me to cry in front of them. They're, they understand, they get it. And I tell them I'm like, I'm just really overwhelmed. Like because I'm like I want this to be a space where they get it.
Speaker 2:Like this is okay, all these things are okay. This is just being human, and there's so much alignment in the expression of that that I hear from you and your interactions with them, and then also the internal experience you have. Yeah, you know, it matches. You're not. The affect or your expression of it Isn't something that isn't genuine. It's actually what's happening in your life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and it's, it's. I mean, I got through it. So, melissa, I want you to actually we went, we went, we went for it. I do want you to take a moment, though, to introduce yourself to the listeners, because I mentioned gestalt psychotherapy in your bio. So I want to be able to explain that to the listeners as well, because actually, I very much like I like that psych bio. So I want to be able to explain that to the listeners as well, because actually, I very much like I like that psychotherapy. So I would love for you to go in a little bit more detail there as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it would have been. I, as I was listening to us have the conversation we just did, I was thinking how so many things, um, are so interesting about what we were talking about, like about the relational patterns, and, um, you had said it took you 37 years. It's taken you, taking you like 37 years, right, you get to a point 37 years of, like you know, operating a certain way that began when you were very, very young. Yeah, right, and we get hardwired. So, yeah, I'm so happy to talk about gestalt therapy. I will start by sharing that Gestalt really saved my life, as you had already shared. By the time I found Gestalt, I had been with two different therapists very long term, so like close to a decade of my life with therapists who, with their style and the modality they used, they weren't relational in nature.
Speaker 2:It was a lot of trying to figure stuff out up here, sort of avoid, in particular, my very first therapist was like I don't ever remember her asking me about anything happening in my body ever and now that's completely mind blowing. But I was really stuck and unhappy and a couple of things had happened in my life losses and just stress of life and, um, you know, walking into a therapist's office for the very first time was pretty mind boggling to me, like it was just a very unknown process. I didn't know what to expect, I didn't know what it was about. I was very scared of it and the person who normalized it for me, you know, I could hear from him I probably couldn't hear it from many people at that point in my life, but I was able to hear from him that I needed something that I wasn't I didn't have. You know, I don't know, I don't. At the time I didn't know what that was, I didn't understand. But you know I struggled with feeling depressed and at times probably anxious, although we didn't call it anxiety like we do today. Um, that's been a term that's really been integrated into our culture and our existence and part of mainstream conversation now.
Speaker 2:But so 10 years goes by and I go back to school and went and studied social work and was with my therapist through all of this and finished graduate school. I met my first job in community mental health and my clinical supervisor at that time and our very first session sat down with me and basically guided me into Gestalt, without me really knowing what was going on and what you know. You say that I found gestalt. Gestalt I didn't find it at all. It found me, you know, and what was missing from all the therapy that I had and I'm also going to include, like there were groups in here a couple of different groups that I attended therapy groups.
Speaker 2:It wasn't just seeing a therapist, only in terms of the healing work that I was doing, and I also relied on medication for my moods and to deal with my depression, and so I had that relationship that was monthly, consistent, you know. So I had a lot going on. It was an opportunity to look at myself, but nothing was really changing. You know like I was as depressed 10 years after investing in therapy you know that I was when I began and I was just so lost. And what Gestalt did was that relationship I had with that therapist. And I'll start talking about Gestalt a little bit. I'm going to jump around and I hope I won't be too confusing, but let me go back and just do a quick history of Gestalt. Gestalt is the first known american psychotherapy. It was brought over by uh fritz and laura pearls. They were married um fritz pearls was born um at the turn of the century late 1800s, and he was a soldier and he was a german jew. He served in world war one in the trenches and came from a family of lawyers and had this predetermined fate of. He was supposed to be a lawyer and he came out of this war with what we would call PTSD today. He went into treatment and he ended up going to medical school and he studied with Freud, and Fritz was the first person to dispute any of Freud's theories publicly and he was told at the time if you do this, you're never going to work. You don't do this. Like you know, freud was was the person at that time who was also a medical doctor, and he caused a total uproar at a conference when he gave some kind of a I don't know if it was a plenary speech or whatever but through his own experiences in life and his own curiosities and his own wounding is how this got developed and what he saw missing so much from also Freud's work was we can't tell somebody what their experience is right. So analysis of somebody else's issues or analysis of their problems or analysis of what they're doing really isn't so helpful, because how you make meaning in the world, how your patterns have developed over time, is what's important. Right, because you can have two people in the same environment and growing up like siblings and they both turn out completely differently. Why you know exactly.
Speaker 2:So Freud recognized, or Fritz recognized, some things that were missing. One was the experience of what was happening in the body. So, because he had gone through this incredible trauma, he and he had what we would have called PTSD. He was having these experiences and felt them and had to find a way to cope with them. And it wasn't by shoving them down or suppressing them. It was really by allowing them to emerge and give voice to them and feel through them and through that experience, with someone sitting across from you who shows up like a real human being. You know, we enter into a relationship with our clients and patients and through this relationship you have an opportunity to explore some of the wounding and some of the patterns that have developed over time, that have become healthy. Some we know really well, some we don't know so well, some emerge in the process of discovery, in the, in therapy, in the context of that relationship.
Speaker 2:So gestalt is known as several things. It's known as an embodied therapy. So what's happening somatically in our body, where we feel things? What do they feel like? Do we know what they're called? Because that is your navigation system and that informs you of what your experience is. And it has to start there because we're not going to figure it out up here, we're not going to remember every single thing in our lives from up here, but our bodies never, ever forget. So embodied, experiential, so present in the moment.
Speaker 2:Relational meaning I show up in a very authentic way with my patients. So if I'm moved by something, you know, it might be very therapeutic for them to see that they're having an impact on me and that I'm touched by something and what that evokes and what that's like to have a conversation, dialogue right, use the word dialogue earlier Around, what our experience is of one another and for me to help, you know, with my patients, guide them with their own experience. So it's also known as a creative therapy. It's also known as a confrontational therapy, not because we're mean, but because we're. We notice things and we might point things out that we hear or we see. And so just you know, pointing somebody out like I noticed you moved your hand up here Can maybe for somebody feel very confrontational in a negative way, like being seen. It can be very startling and for some, you know, maybe it doesn't elicit that. Who knows what happens in the moment. But it's a really complex relationship.
Speaker 2:The work that I do is from an attachment lens, attachment theory framework, where I really do believe that our relational patterns in the world and what we've developed has come through our family of origins and those relationships we had with our parent or lack of parent figures, and then how we learn to respond to that, to the bigger field around us, to how we figured out just how to navigate life. And, like I said, some of those things are very healthy and some of those things are not healthy at all and some, some of those behaviors or patterns might even be completely destructive, right? So it's really about and I tell all of my patients this therapy is very simple with me. It's not easy, but it's very simple.
Speaker 2:Awareness is the key, because once we're aware of something, once we're aware of a feeling, once we're aware of an experience, once we're aware of something, of what we're doing, how we're showing up, what's coming up for us, then we have a choice, and that is it. That is the key. It is that simple that it offers you a choice and you can make the same choice over and over, or you can try to incorporate maybe something different about the choice you're making, and it might be a subtle change, right, it might be something very small that's tolerable, around the behavior or around, a pattern that you can incorporate, because change happens slowly, over time. This is not a race. There's no destination, there's no outcome that I can tell you, you should ever expect from the process of at least working with me.
Speaker 2:Because what emerges in the foreground when we stay present with ourselves, when we're present in a relationship, when we connect back to what our experience is as we do, that the foreground, what emerges or what comes forward within our awareness changes. So that feeling maybe, that you have in your chest when oh, it's so hard to cancel on mother's day, that feeling, yeah, maybe you can be with that feeling. Yeah, maybe you can be with that. And in that process of being with that, what's that like? What comes up for you, what's it like to share that with me? What's it like to just sit with that in your body, what does it feel like to sit in it? You know, and explore every single aspect that we can think of in order to have a different relationship with herself. I'm going to sneeze.
Speaker 1:Bless you. No, no, it's good, you know. It's interesting because, as you were talking, I was thinking of examples of like you know, even just observing. So I think a lot of people myself, my former self included um stay incredibly busy as a way of hiding from, like sitting silently with yourself, because majority of people from, in my opinion, what I observe is that people are very sorely actually disconnected from themselves and we're using work, social media, like you know, social social outings, like you kind of use it to fill everything in, because the reality is like you're not, you're not being mindful and you're really not paying attention to like well, how do you actually feel about this? And I was explaining, I was telling my cousin the other day.
Speaker 1:She was very surprised to hear this, but I said to her that I actually get a very large amount of anxiety when I have to leave my area, like my, and when I have to travel, and my work sometimes requires travel. So I have to leave, like and I'm not going any place far, like majority of it's, you know, driving distance. I'm going to New York or I went down to Virginia, you know, like just places, that's right there, um, but whenever I have to leave my area, my home, like just places, that's right there. But whenever I have to leave my area, my home, my town, where I live right now, I start to get anxious and, sure enough, like clockwork night before I can't sleep and I start thinking through well, what if I get into an accident? What if something happens to me while I'm out of the house? Like, is everything prepared for my family? Like, what if something happens and I, I'm this? Is it like this is the last time I'm here? Will they will? Does my husband know where all the documents?
Speaker 2:are.
Speaker 1:And it's, it's crazy, because you're just, you're just, it's normal you're commuting someplace, like it's not a big deal. This anxiety starts to really like settle in and I know what it is, I recognize it for what it is and I understand I'm like this isn't, in my opinion, real. Jenny, this is something that's you're having a trigger for some reason, and I haven't quite figured out what the reason is, but I already know that it's a trigger. And so whenever that anxiety starts to come up, I recognize it for what it is and I start self-talking and I'm like, jenny, you know this isn't real, like everything's fine, you're going to be safe, you'll be careful while you're out there and everyone's fine here. And I kind of just like get over that hump. Because the reality of the situation is, if I lean into that anxiety, that fear of just not being in my home, controlling everything, if I lean into that, well then what does that do? That is basically making my world that much smaller and it's removing experiences that I might not have. So I always kind of I just face it head on and that was something that I learned when I started therapy in my early twenties and anxiety I was letting it wash over me and I was letting it control me and I was letting it, I was allowing it to rule my whole world. And so it took. You know this was in my early 20s.
Speaker 1:I took, like you know, a solid like 18 years for me to really understand, like you know, this feeling that you're having isn't actually real and it's not just applicable to you know, me leaving my area, there's other things that I get anxiety about, where I'm like all right, jenny, you recognize what this is. So this, this trigger happened and now this is your physical response. And I keep touching my chest, listeners, because that's where I get it. Like I start to feel it right in my chest and then I actually start to feel it in my throat, like it feels, like my throat starts to close and I just know what it is now. And having that awareness of what it is empowers me to get past it and it empowers me to be able to say, like you know, I acknowledge you, I know that you exist there, anxiety, but I'm not going to lean into it, I'm just going to take a breath and I'm going to take a small step forward here and that's helping me to get not not so much over it because I'm still there, but I'm able to get around it. I'm able to get past it, I'm able to continue on with my life without it ruling me.
Speaker 1:And I'm sure there's many, many other listeners that are probably nodding along like, yeah, you know I do get anxiety here and there and this and that and I know it's more severe for others than you know. It varies, but it's something that I've recognized and been able to get past. And just acknowledging it, in my opinion and you know a lot of us will start to feel anxiety you feel at first like it's not I don't think it's not in your head, it's in your physical body. And if you are using how you're feeling as a barometer like Melissa already said, you a guidance to help you recognize, like, am I really happy with this situation or am I not happy with this situation? Because even that gets muddied, like people don't really recognize.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm doing this because I feel guilted into doing this or I'm doing this because I feel like it's an obligation and it's not something I really want to be doing. And when you're in those kinds of scenarios, those emotions will also start to snowball. Because when I used to put myself in the scenario of I don't really want to do this, but I'm doing it because I feel like I have to, I would get really angry and I would lash out at everybody else. And the reality was I was really mad at myself for not saying no, which is why I practice now saying no yeah there's your double-edged sword, like between victim and martyr.
Speaker 2:Right there your example I don't say no and I'm angry. You lash out at other people because you didn't say no, because you know I can't say no, I can't take up space, I can't, I don't want to upset them, I don't want to. Whatever the thing is, right that you're telling yourself that is going to happen when you set limits. And Right, you're such a martyr, you're so generous, you're so giving you. Look at you, right. But the other side then with that anger is you turn it on yourself too. Right? There's, like this victim of like I can't say no.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:You know, look at all I have to do. I have to do all this. Look at how I show up for everybody, um, but you're attacking everybody and you're attacking yourself in that process, right? And anxiety is such a painful experience to have like. When people say, when they use that word anxiety with me, I have no idea what that means, because it's such a variety of emotions, potential emotions and potential physical symptoms that people go through that and it looks different for every single person and they feel it differently in their bodies, they feel it at different places. So I really appreciate hearing that awareness that you have when your body is anxious, you have a practice of hey, wait a minute, I'm noticing this and you know it well. Now, you know it very well.
Speaker 1:I'm guessing that this part of you has been around for a very, very long time. Say that once more.
Speaker 2:I didn't catch it. I will bet that this part of you, your anxious part, has been around for a very long time. Yeah, this is old, right, so I appreciate your honing into what your body is telling you, because it's probably very uncomfortable, right, it's probably something that like don't like, we want to run away from it because it's painful. So many things happen physiologically in our bodies when we're anxious. It is astounding, and we have so many emotions that come with anxiety.
Speaker 2:And then you also have all of the thought processes that go with it, and it is a list of I don't even know how many things, I wonder. I should probably compile that someday. But for you to be willing to come back to that and connect to it and listen to it, first of all, good for you. It's very difficult to do, because everything about that emotion or that experience tells us to leave, get the heck away. Right, it's so unsafe, but your body's signaling to you something doesn't feel okay. And so reality testing of like, wait a minute, is this really truthful fear or is the? Am I making this?
Speaker 2:up right now Like futuristic thinking, fear of the unknown. Oh god, a car accident? This could happen. This could happen. What if? What if? What, if, what, if, what if? Well, yeah, I mean, probably many of those things are based in reality. It could happen. But it's just a way for you to stay small, right, it wants to keep you safe. It wants to keep you small. It wants to keep you safe. It wants to keep you small, it wants to protect you. This anxiety and reality testing, and then you know what? Maybe there is something to pay attention to, right, maybe wait a minute. If that's not the situation, are you really happy here? Is this a choice? Whatever this is, it's coming up for you. Is this something you are? Is this a choice? Whatever this is that's coming up for you? Is this something you are? Do you like it? Does it feel good? What does it feel like? And being able to let this be your guide? Your body is your guide. Your body will never lie to you.
Speaker 2:You think it is, or you think it will, or you're afraid it might, but it won't.
Speaker 2:We have learned you said this earlier to disconnect, right, we've learned and been taught to disconnect from our very own innate knowing. Yeah, you know our innate being with ourselves, and we have no chance of being with other people if we cannot tolerate being with ourselves. You know so and it's a process, right, like if you just go around and you're just kind of an anxious person in general. It's a process to learn to pay attention, to be able to tolerate those feelings, to be able to understand, to be able to know. Well, I don't know, maybe, where this comes from, I don't know what this really means, but here it is again, I know what I need to do, right, and that's, like, I think, the gift of the awareness that comes as a result of of course, I'm going to always say gestalt, because that's what I practice and that's what really resonated for me and my healing and the work I do. That's, you know, when I see people heal and their lives change. Something's right.
Speaker 2:Right, but that's the beauty of what this has, you know, offered to me is the opportunity to be present with myself and know myself and understand myself in a way that I never did before you know, and in that because it's like a lesson in how to have a relationship with somebody, then being able to work through some of that stuff in the context of how does that play out now in my relationships with people? Because you know, wherever you go, there you are and a really good therapist is going to take you back to those moments where you are stuck again. You know, and that's the painful work is to be able to tolerate all that. But I will also say it is life changing, you know, not just life saving, you know, but life changing, which is the hard thing to do.
Speaker 1:Right when I was 37, there was like a pivotal. But I actually want to say when I was 25, I think I think it was the year that I turned 25. I was single and I just, you know, was working and I remember it was a almost like a pivotal.
Speaker 1:Like you know, 25 is a big birthday, right, so for me I was like it was like a one of those pivotal, like moments where I could stick a pin and say this is when I started to really think about well, jenny, what do you, what do you want to be doing, or what do you like, what do you want. Because for a really long time I was consistently like oh, I'll be there for everybody else. Oh, I'm fine, I'm to the side, I, oh I'll. You know, my own things are not a big deal and it was very consistent Like I'll use the word martyr earlier, like I'll throw myself into the fire for somebody else. And it took a whole year of me almost rewiring my brain. And actually that was when I had started more deeply looking into, like you know, how are, how, what, how are my thoughts running through my head and how are those thoughts then changing? Like how I'm feeling in my body and what kind of energy am I putting out there into the universe? Like what am I, what am I saying that I want without really saying that I want it, and not realizing what's going on.
Speaker 1:And there was a full year of me reflecting on this because I wasn't happy, like I was looking at my life and being like I really don't like how this is going. Like I want to. You know, I would love to get married. At that point I was like I'd love to get married, I'd love to have a family. Like I want to meet somebody. Like you know, I would love to get married. At that point I was like I'd love to get married, I'd love to have a family. Like I want to meet somebody. Like you know, I want to start this other phase of my life, but I don't know where. I don't even know me at this point. And at that point I was like, if I don't know me, exactly what you just said, I was like well then, how could I even begin to think of anybody else or begin to put myself into anything else? Because up until that point, jenny existed as a reflection of the people around her. She wasn't Jenny, she was just a reflection of everyone else and what I thought everyone else wanted to see. So I took this year and really reflected, and really deeply reflected on like well, how are you feeling about this situation? And that was the first time I actually started to be like okay, somebody asked you to do this, are you okay doing this or do you not want to do it and that was when I first started saying you know what? No, I don't want to go or I'm not interested. And it was very small Because you know, as you said, like change is not a big problem.
Speaker 1:I think a lot of us have is that we think things have to happen in one huge change, one fell swoop. We're making this change. Yeah, if you try to do that, you're going to fail because your brain is already wired to what you are currently doing. And in order to rewire your brain, this is not something that happens really fast. It is very small baby steps, because if you try it too fast, it's going to feel too uncomfortable and you're going to fail at it. So it started really small, where I would just say like no, I can't stay late at work, which pained me because I was a workaholic. So that was like a tough, you know, and just saying no to my family was huge, huge. Saying no to my family was huge, huge.
Speaker 1:So flash forward a year. I meet my husband and I remember meeting him and I came home and I remember we went on a first date very next day. We met on a Friday. We went on our first date on a Saturday. I remember very detailed how it all went down and I remember going home and you know, my, my family was there and they were like, oh, you know how was it expecting like a funny cause. I would always come home with these funny, you know little stories about oh, it went horribly wrong and this and that. And I just I said to my cousin, who's my closest friend, and I was like I think I think this is it, this is the guy. And she was like I think this is it, this is the guy. And she was like what are you talking about? But it took this year of me really digging deep for me to be able to see him for who he was and for what I saw in the future that I saw with him.
Speaker 1:Now, that's not to say it was by any means some kind of fairy tale situation. It wasn't Just, you know, just like any relationship. We had problems in the beginning, like you know what have you? But at every stop I would stop and I would turn inwardly and say, okay, are you happy? At night, when you lay your head down like, are you happy? Are you happy with how things are going?
Speaker 1:Because everyone around me had very loud opinions about what I was doing, because, for them, they saw my dating my husband as this massive departure from what they were expecting of me, and because I became serious with him so quickly, they all saw this as a problem, because I was actually withdrawing my, you know attention from everyone else and putting it to myself and what I wanted for the first time, and it was.
Speaker 1:It was a very, very hard thing to go through at the time because you know you, you want your family to be supportive, you want, you know, your friends to be supportive and what I start? I started losing people in my life because, for the first time ever, I was doing something that I truly was happy with and I saw so much positivity in it that I couldn't turn away from it. And there and every step of the way, I would ask myself Jenny, are you happy? Are you happy today? Are we happy with this situation? And every time it came back, yes, I was like, okay, we're going to keep going. And and I had and now I've, you know, been able to cultivate this beautiful thing here, this beautiful family, but it was really truly because I stopped listening to all the noise around me and I really just turned inwardly and was like am I happy now? And it was very. It was. It sounds simple and silly, but it took a lot of work to be able to do that.
Speaker 2:I'm going to guess that every, almost every single person listening to you talk right now is identifying with what you're sharing. This is like podcasts by women for women, with women right Steel Roses. I love the title, by the way. I probably already told you that, but being so quick, we are taught as females in our society and it's still taught today.
Speaker 2:You know we think we're so progressive and advanced and you know, to be honest, we're still doing a lot of the same things we've always done, right? We're just doing more of it now, right? So now it's not just your mother, and that's the role you have, and that's the importance and you take care of the home and you take care of the family.
Speaker 2:You take care of the family, you take care of the, the spouse. Now it's well. You can also go to school and you can also have a career, and then you can also have a podcast on top of that and you can also look really good and be in shape and be healthy and be like you know. All these things you can do it all. You can have it all. That's what we have shifted from. You have limits as a woman. You don't get to get an education. You don't get to be a CEO like you're. You know to well. You can do all that. But you still have to be a mom too, Right, Right. You still have to be selfless and care and feed and nourish birth. I mean, I didn't start with the birthing of it, but carry that Right.
Speaker 1:Look at all the female.
Speaker 2:Look at what the female body goes through for a pregnancy and a birth. Like we don't talk about the trauma of pregnancy. It's very traumatic to a female body and women do it all the time. Look, look, how amazing they are. Right? But we be are so programmed. We are so programmed to defer to the other person's needs, Right? Even in this role we're talking about, we have deferred now to somebody else's society's idea of how we should be living as a woman, right? So there's something wrong with you. If you chose to have a career and not chose, if you chose to not have children of your own, if you chose not to have children, if you didn't have a drive, or do not have a drive to be a mother and birth a child, society tells you there is something wrong with you. If you really do take care of yourself and you set limits and you fire that person that, like you know, isn't doing their job they're stealing time, whatever the thing is that's going on then you're a bitch.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:Are you allowed to curse on this podcast? I didn't even know I haven't heard profanity on the episodes.
Speaker 2:I've listened to. Here we go. Oh my God, melissa Bennett Hines she said the word bitch, you know. So we're just so conditioned. We're so conditioned and it's so easy for us to defer and say and sacrifice ourself off because that's what we're taught to do.
Speaker 2:So, relearning that we matter, relearning that we are somebody we need to pay attention to and that our life matters and the way we feel in the world and what we want matters. And there are so many interjects or shoulds or defined roles that we learned, or messages we learned about how to be, how to look, how to do, how to act. You know that to break out of that, to make small changes, when that stuff is so ingrained from so many directions in our culture, to not do that anymore is nothing short of a total act of rebellion. Right To say no. I can't do that on Mother's Day, because you know what I am a mom, and this is important to me and my family wants to army. This is what I'm doing. Yeah, right, and not no, because I said I'd have the podcast and I said I could do it all, and so now I have to do it all.
Speaker 1:Oh, I have. This is like a constant, a constant theme and and I will and you know it's funny, interesting I met with um this season in this series that's running right now, I interviewed a woman that was. She was there for the very first women's conference in Boston and for like the feminist movement in the very, very early days and the opening thing she said to me on her episode, the very first thing she said was I'm very sorry for what things have turned out to be. She's like the intention was never for us to do everything. It was just to have the opportunity to be able to make a choice to do things, but it was never meant for us to wholly carry every single thing that we're carrying, because she knew she said exactly what you just said.
Speaker 1:She's like I know you're a mother, you have a full time job, you work the podcast. She was like and you're probably doing a bunch of other things that are like full time jobs, and I know every single woman I know is doing the same thing, everything basically on them. And only recently and I've said a few times in this episode, only recently have I started to say like oh wait, no, I'm not available. You know that when things were the tough that last week that my project was like really going crazy, I canceled all the kids extracurricular activities for the week.
Speaker 1:I was like we're not coming to anything this week it's not going to happen, like just not doing it to myself and I have to make space for myself. Now. I know, I know that I got judged for that, not here at home, because, what you know, my husband's like yes, choose yourself. Yeah, I know I got judged for that because I was like they're not coming to practice, they're not going to games, it's not happening. We're not going to any of these meetings. And the look to the outside world is like wow, how selfish is she that she chose her career. And I'm like it really wasn't.
Speaker 1:To me it was more of a choice of sanity. Am I going to make myself insane? And my husband will always say to me they're eight, jen, they're not professional soccer players. They can miss a couple of games and it will be all good. Something my husband has consistently said to me and I only recently again put it into practice was he was like you have to be okay because you're the ship, you're the mothership, and if the ship goes down, we are all going down. He's like, so you have to be making sure that you are okay, that your health is okay, that your mental health is okay, like you have to be a priority, because if you're not a priority. You're going to fall and then you're going to take us all down with you, and that's a big thing that I think that a lot of women we don't see prioritizing ourselves as something that's going to benefit everybody. But we cannot. We cannot fill everyone else's cups from an empty vessel, so we're totally depleted, that's it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and we operate from a society that's relational style. Our entire society's relational style is codependent and I can talk about the codependency in the structure of our society and in our relationships all over the place. I could go in many different directions and give you examples of what do I mean by this, but with women, like with what you're talking about, you're talking about. So when I say codependency, all I am doing is describing a dynamic. I'm describing a way that people operate in a relationship. It's almost like a flavor, but it's a dynamic, it's a quality and a person who is codependent. And I know that's like a buzzword and a big word and I don't really think a lot of people even know what it means. But literally what it means is sacrificing our own needs for seemingly somebody else's gain or somebody else's need or what you perceive, somebody else's need to be Right. Our whole society operates this way and we think in this well, I won't go to the gym, I won't take that time, I'll make that dinner. I won't take that time, I'll make that dinner. I got to put the laundry away. I still have to finish writing my notes from my sessions this week and my husband's not feeling good and he's really struggling right now with his pain and we're so behind on so many things to do. I really don't have time to go to the gym, even though I just sat and worked for, you know, probably more than a full-time work week, right, and the one thing I do for myself is I get my rear end to the gym and if I get in that door I am working out like and it really doesn't matter what I do, because when I show up and I start getting into it, then, like you know, the momentum goes. It feels good to be there. But to create that space, to carve out that time, to say, in order for me to function, in order for me to sleep well, best, in order for me to show up in my job, in my role, in order for me to be a good partner, to be a kind person in our society, to be a patient friend you know to be, you know just, all of that takes a lot of awareness and a lot of being willing.
Speaker 2:And if I'm tired and I'm not well cared for and my body's breaking down and I don't feel good and there's no time for me and I've done it in service of another's needs, perceived needs. Then what have I really done? What have I done? Right, I've harmed me. And now, by harming me, I've harmed every single person around me.
Speaker 2:I promise you, you don't want to know me when I'm too tired and I'm not feeling good and I'm in more pain and my body's screaming at me because I haven't stretched or done yoga or Pilates, and I miss a week of yoga and Pilates. And boy do I know it. And and you know what, not only do I know it, everybody around me knows it. And how is that giving? How is that kind? How is that caring? It's not yeah, you know, it's actually me to not take care of ourselves, because we're not. We're not martyrs, you know, and we're also not victims. We don't have to do it all. We don't, we don't.
Speaker 2:And so being able to just like recognize when we're in this relational style because I think it goes on all over the place, because I think it goes on all over the place, you know when we can start stopping that pattern and just checking in with ourselves and just saying, hey, is this what I want?
Speaker 2:Is this? How do I feel about this? Is this something that aligns with my truth inside, if I really pause and check in with myself of what I need or what I want, and can you give it to yourself? Yeah, because, you know, in a marriage or with children or in our work, sometimes we do have to sometimes put some of our needs on pause. Right, and are these really needs or are they wants? You know, and deciphering and learning that about yourself. You know what, what makes you tick. You know what. What is it that fills your cup of? What makes what do you need in order to function optimally for you? Yeah, can you give it to you Right, cause that's the hard part, right? Like I think a lot of women might say they know what they want, but they would never take up that space, yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh I could never, I could never, you know and you know, I want to share something, though before I'm going to, like you know, respond, of course, but I have to just do one more thing. I have women that I work with, and all ages, but I really noticed something that has caused me to feel so much tenderness and empathy towards women is I know women who have just sacrificed their whole life. They have just their whole life was an act of service, literally, and they get to 50, 60, service, literally, and they get to 50, 60, 70, 80. And I'm not kidding. I've had women who were in their seventies sitting with me who've said I don't even know what I enjoy, I don't even really know what I want to do, I don't know what I even really like to eat.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't even know what to prepare. If it were just for me.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And it's a mind blowing thing for them to pause in that for a moment for the first time, but also to start being able to figure out how to navigate, taking up some space in the world. Yeah, and I'm so glad that you're not doing this at like 80 or 70.
Speaker 1:Well, and that was like a big deal too. Like, to be perfectly honest, I felt very blessed that at 30, well, it's interesting, the thing that happened when I was 37 was also a work trigger. It was a project for work that at that time, leading up into that point, I very actively would always like workaholic. My way through things like that was just, I just did it. And I did it when my kids were really young, out of guilt, because I'm like, oh, I have three babies, I need to prove myself. Like it was that whole, you know that whole thinking. Yeah, but it stayed with me for a really long time. And at 37 was when I had that like it was. It was like a light switch all of a sudden. I was like I don't want to do this, I'm miserable. Like what am I doing? And it took time, like it took a lot of like this. You know I and I didn't do it alone Like I tapped into. You know they have there's so many great virtual programs now that you can tap into for support. You have to be careful, obviously, make sure you get a good one.
Speaker 1:I happened to find is it was because I started researching podcasting that I found this online community to become a part of where I ended up taking courses, and it like shifted everything that I did. And I've spoken to women on the podcast that, as you said, like didn't really recognize like that they wanted to do something for themselves and didn't even know what they wanted to do until they got much, much older. And it is because we are so conditioned to spend so much time focusing and sacrificing for others. I was taught that. I was literally my mother literally said those words to me that you know like godliness is, you know, sacrifice for others, turn the other cheek, do that, and it was just deeply put into my mind to do it. But then it started backfiring and I started getting very resentful of, like, my kids and my husband and I would see them enjoying themselves and I would be like, why am I sweating in here scrubbing a toilet when I like what and everyone's outside having fun? Like what am I doing? And you know it, it very much will snowball into something really terrible if you're not paying attention to, like how you're feeling about things and something else.
Speaker 1:And I refer to my husband a lot and things that he says, because I he's very, to me, very insightful and you know we even talk about, like our relationship as a couple and you know, paying attention to each other. Because a lot of times when you have kids, you know you're not, you're so focused on the kids that you neglect the marriage. And he said to me in his wisdom he said because he has older children. He said to me he was like these guys are going to grow up and they're going to leave the house and then you and I are going to be what strangers like. We have to actually focus on our relationship too. So there's so much more to it. Even if you don't have kids to like, focus on the relationship. Spend time with yourself, spend time with your partner, spend time at work, but balance everything out.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So that you're not over indexing in places. You know, and there maybe sometimes you do have to, like I just said, like I had to spend, you know, five or six weeks of my life totally focused on my job, but now I'm balanced, pulled back and balancing things out again. You know, like it's really there is no end goal. There is no. Oh, I, I'm here now and now I'm done. Like there is no end, this is it. This life is the journey. Like we're not. Like, oh, we checked this box, Now I can relax, I don't have to do anything anymore. Like no, like this.
Speaker 2:Is it? We're living it, like you know, we just got to get there. Yes, it's, it's. You say so much when you speak, but you know, for families with children, when I think of the partnership, like the parents, they're the teachers, they're the leaders, they're the people who model, they are the guides, they are the people that these little beings, your children, are going to have their foundation for their entire life set from you, and they are going to learn every little thing and so much more than you even imagine, right from you, things that you hope they don't learn. They're going to learn, whether you think you did it or not.
Speaker 2:And when I think of the health of a family, when I think of the health of a family, when I think of the health of the children, you know what the, I think, idea is. You sacrifice for the kids, right. You do it for the kids. Well, that's an imbalance, right? Because if the guides, if the, if the vessels who are leading all of this and teaching are not well, if there's discord, if there's resentment, if there's lack of communication, if there's anger, whatever the things come up where they're not working as a unit and they're not loving and they're not modeling, all of like, how to be in a relationship with one another, then the kids are going to suffer, right?
Speaker 2:So if you as a couple are not healthy, if you're not well, if you're not connected, if you're not working as a team to teach these young people, your kids, then they are not going to learn the most from you that's possible, and in fact, it's not just the most from you that's possible, and in fact it's not just the most it's. You 'll also learn some things that are going to be damaging. If you, as a couple, make it right. You as a couple have to make it for this family to remain intact, yeah, you know. And if you want them to remain intact, you have to invest into your partnership and that is the most important thing in this family, right? Kids are so resilient. We're going to make mistakes. As parents, you're going to do things that are going to cause harm, no matter how smart you are, how many books you've read, I think about that all the time.
Speaker 1:Now, I'm sure you're going to go into therapy, guys, I'm sure of it.
Speaker 2:Yep, and you've done a good job. If your kid is willing to go to therapy, you know like you've got it all about it.
Speaker 1:Listen like there's other moms that I'm friends with, that we all very much are on this, this train of like. Hey, you know what a little extra help can hurt, right like you know which is a monthly visit.
Speaker 2:Why not? I'm not supposed to do it alone, no we are not hardwired to do it alone. We are.
Speaker 1:It was never met. Like the phrase it takes a village is like real, like it really?
Speaker 2:it's absolutely takes a village, right, because what if the grocery store guy decides he's not doing that anymore? Where are you getting your food? Exactly right. So, like, what's going to happen if your doctor decides I don't want to do that anymore? Like what, what are we going to do? Right, what if the teachers decided they're staying home? Like what if all the teachers just decided I'm done? You know, it really does take a village. So it's like macro.
Speaker 2:We need to be thinking that way of like. How do we care for our community? How do we care for the people and support one another? Because we all need one another, we all rely on one another, right, we rely on one another to respect rules, to obey laws, to all kinds of stuff, you know. But, um, yeah, it's in this idea, like it's just so flipped upside down, how so many people are functioning out of awareness. You know, lack of awareness is that they see being sacrificial with their self, as giving and as generous. And you know what? Flip it upside down, do it the other way, right? So, and I love these, you know, I think, too, a lot of people walk into therapy and they're anxious or depressed or they've had some life event that causes them to show up in my office. And most people, most people come when they're backed into a corner.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right when they can't do it anymore, when they're stuck, when there's something falling apart, when they're sick, when they just they need help. I need help, I gotta go. But what I think they don't know coming in is what they're about to embark on. Is not us finding, you know, an answer for them, like how to fix this. It's the discovery of becoming into, coming into a relationship with yourself and in the world entirely differently. You know, and if any therapist tells you they're going to promise you any kind of an outcome, I highly recommend you don't go to them, because they can't. They can guarantee is you're going to have a different way of relating to yourself. You know you'll have a different knowing about yourself.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You will have a different awareness about yourself. Now, what you do with all of that is up to you. This is your life to live. And I want to go back to something else you were saying, because that just jogged my memory of a point I wanted to make. That was so important that I heard earlier on in our conversation, jenny, that this is one of the things about Gestalt that is very unique to Gestalt, which is taking responsibility.
Speaker 2:Right, so we can have this awareness and we can have this recognition, but in order to make any kind of change, we have to take responsibility for ourselves, right for what we're feeling what we're feeling, what we're doing, the choices we're making, and there's a lot of work that goes into learning to take responsibility for ourselves and grow up right Like that's really the definition of maturity is when we parent ourselves, we take responsibility, we guide ourselves through situations, we guide ourselves through situations, we support ourselves through things.
Speaker 2:We nurture ourselves, nourish ourselves like that's really the goal of evolution is to survive right on our own without that parent. That's the goal. That's how we go on as a civilization, and we're not taught a lot of things about how to do that in a way that sustain us, sustains us in a healthy way, or that's going to provide us with longevity and not just like longevity of time, like quantity, but quality, yeah, quality, you know, for whatever amount of time we get to be here for, you know, for whatever amount of time we get to be here for, you know, and I think the when you said I feel really blessed, like I feel so blessed and this is a newer thing for me, this isn't something that I was born with when I'm about to say this is this is years and years and years and years and years of work and continued work on myself with a therapist still to this day. Yes Of, I can be here with and for myself and by myself. Yeah, that is enough, that's enough.
Speaker 1:Yeah, a hundred a hundred percent, and it has, it has to be enough.
Speaker 2:Anything else after that's just icing on the cake. Yeah, you know anything else. That's just dicing on the cake. Yeah, you know anything else. So, yeah, uh, I feel so grateful for my many opportunities to learn in life, because all of my pain, all of my experiences, all of the things that caused like the root underneath the depression, the root underneath the anxiety, the roots underneath these destructive behaviors, maladaptive functioning that we all do to a degree, going through all of that gave me an opportunity to learn and to grow and to expand and to become more whole as a person, and not any part of you or me or anyone has to be rejected. Yeah, yeah, we can just show up entirely whole.
Speaker 2:There's no English equivalent, really, but it is best described as pattern or taking shape. And what we're really interested in looking at are these patterns that have developed over time and are they good? Do we like them or do you want to change them? And how right? If it's not serving you, then what changes do you want to make? And it could be a slight change that makes so much difference.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's true. It doesn't have to be huge.
Speaker 2:It could be the smallest thing and it will be the smallest thing, and it will be the smallest thing, and then it's going to create another small change that you're going to make.
Speaker 1:And then it's going to stumble.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's building a foundation right One brick at a time, Melissa, that that was very well. Well, that was very well put um. Thank you for coming on the show today and for sharing your expertise. I loved having this conversation with you.
Speaker 1:I told you we were gonna see where it goes yeah, I like to just kind of the audience knows. I like to just kind of go with the flow with this and see like where we end up. Listeners, I'm going to put a link in the episode description to Melissa's website so you can just take a look at the information she has on there. I was poking around there. She has a blog like check everything out. Thank you again for being on the show.
Speaker 1:I greatly appreciate it and listeners thank you for being with us today and we will catch you on the next one, take care.
